[Solved?] Blocks, Library, Edit Block, Edit Block In Place

[Chips&Chips]

I am trying to work with creating and using a part library. And, in order to do so in an efficient manner and not just experiment and start over and over again as I have had to do already, I want to UNDERSTAND how this WORKS - END to END.

I have not read it anywhere, but apparently at some point between drawing a part and calling it back from the library file, the collection of drawing elements (lines, circles, arcs, text, etc.) is grouped into a BLOCK. So, when a part from a library is used, the file of that part, in the library BECOMES the name of the BLOCK in the drawing. This, along with the statement that any .DXF or .DWG file can be used as a part, suggests, but does not prove, that the BLOCK is created when the library file is inserted into the drawing.

Now, quite often some aspect of a part must be changed when it is inserted into a drawing. Often this is the rotation, but other things can also be changed. For instance in an electronic drawing each instance of a resistor would require a different R number and a different value. So the BLOCKS that are inserted into a drawing need to be edited.

There are Edit Block and Edit Block In Place commands for BLOCKS. But from my limited experience, BOTH of these commands seem to not only change the instance of the BLOCK/Part that I am working on, but they also BOTH change the file stored in the library file. So, other than the visibility of the rest of my drawing, there doesn't really seem to be any difference between them. And neither of them does what is really needed at that point, which is to alter ONLY the single instance of the Part/BLOCK in my drawing.

Apparently if I want to alter that single instance of the part in my drawing, I must EXPLODE the BLOCK first. And if I wish to continue to have it as a BLOCK after those changes, I need to create a NEW BLOCK with a new BLOCK NAME.

I am not asking for any changes. I am only asking if I understand this correctly so I can continue without creating errors that require me to back-track and erase a large part of my drawing to start over. And if I do have this right, I would like to know if there is a shortcut to perhaps rename a single instance of a BLOCK without going through the EXPLODE and CREATE BLOCK with a new name. Perhaps RENAME BLOCK?

[andrew]

the BLOCK is created when the library file is inserted into the drawing.

Yes, your observations are correct, inserting a file from the part library into your drawing, creates a block with the block name being based on the file name. Blocks are named, reusable groups.

Now, quite often some aspect of a part must be changed when it is inserted into a drawing.

Blocks can be inserted at different angles and scales. The color may also change per block reference.

each instance of a resistor would require a different R number and a different value

For this, you would use block attributes. Block attributes are texts that can have a different value per block reference.

Your block (or part library item) would contain a block attribute definition.

When you insert your block (or part library item), you can define those attributes on a case by case basis. You can also edit these attributes in the property editor when a block reference is selected.

For more about block attributes, please refer also to this forum topic:
https://qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?t=10017

As soon as a block contains different geometry than another block, you'd create a new block with a meaningful new name. You could duplicate an existing block (right-click on the block name and choose to duplicate the block) and then make adjustments to the copy that is created.

Note that blocks and block attributes are not an invention of QCAD but a generic CAD concept.

A QCAD specific block video tutorial is in the making and one about attributes is planned for the future.

[Chips&Chips]

I have been playing with this and the LED has lit over my head. I think it's a blue one.

I tried different angles and scales. The scales seems good, but when I insert at a different angle, all the text both ordinary text that is a fixed part of the part/BLOCK and any text in those block attributes is also rotated. Is there any way to keep the text right side up? Seems like I still need either two or even four different orientations of each part. I did notice that the Flip Vertical button did keep the text readable, but the Flip Horizontal inverted it. That seems strange.

BLOCK ATTRIBUTES! That's what I did not know to look for. Apparently I missed that in my prior CAD experiences. But it is just what I was looking for. And it seems to work well. I can even change them after the fact.

Although they were not well stated, I was able to work out the sequence of operations:

1. Draw your part.
2. Convert it into a BLOCK.
3. Use the Define Block Attribute command as many times as needed to create your Attributes.
4. Then finally, add the BLOCK to your parts library.

Seems like knowing/understanding that sequence is important. But perhaps that's just me.

OK, I am going to actually make a possible suggestion. And I could be missing something: if so I apologize.

It is easy to move those Block Attributes after the part is inserted by just click and drag. That's great. Editing them in the menu bar is dead slow and bringing up the Property Editor each time is only a little faster. It would also be great if the Right-Click, drop down menu for a BLOCK had either an item that takes you immediately to the Property Editor for that instance of the part or to a box in the middle of the screen that allows editing the Attributes on the spot. That would allow you to quickly insert multiple instances of a part/BLOCK and then right click on them to edit the Attributes after they were in place.

Just a suggestion. I wouldn't submit an official feature request until I have more experience with this.

Now I have to edit/recreate about 45 parts with Attributes this time.

the BLOCK is created when the library file is inserted into the drawing.

Yes, your observations are correct, inserting a file from the part library into your drawing, creates a block with the block name being based on the file name. Blocks are named, reusable groups.

Now, quite often some aspect of a part must be changed when it is inserted into a drawing.

Blocks can be inserted at different angles and scales. The color may also change per block reference.

each instance of a resistor would require a different R number and a different value

For this, you would use block attributes. Block attributes are texts that can have a different value per block reference.

Your block (or part library item) would contain a block attribute definition.

When you insert your block (or part library item), you can define those attributes on a case by case basis. You can also edit these attributes in the property editor when a block reference is selected.

For more about block attributes, please refer also to this forum topic:
https://qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?t=10017

As soon as a block contains different geometry than another block, you'd create a new block with a meaningful new name. You could duplicate an existing block (right-click on the block name and choose to duplicate the block) and then make adjustments to the copy that is created.

Note that blocks and block attributes are not an invention of QCAD but a generic CAD concept.

A QCAD specific block video tutorial is in the making and one about attributes is planned for the future.

[Chips&Chips]

This is confusing. I just spent three or four more hours trying to transform ONE of my previously created parts, a battery symbol, into one with Attributes. Perhaps I did some unwise things, I don't know. A quick experiment following the above directions with one of my existing parts worked. I was able to add two attributes to it and they worked. I thought I was there. My existing parts were created on a layer titled 5Schematic but I thought that was a mistake. I wanted to create the new ones on layer 0, which would be in every drawing so a new layer would not be added. OK, here's what I did in a blank drawing with a 0.05" grid:

0. Made layer 0 the current layer.
1. Placed two copies of the part in the blank drawing. I wanted a spare as I was going to erase the library copy somewhere in this process.
2. Typed XP to explode one copy.
3. Edited it to remove the text already in it.
4. Typed YJ to move it to layer 0.
5. Typed BC to make into a Block.
6. Selected the reference point.
7. Gave it the same name as used in the part library file (MISTAKE???).
8. Typed UA to add Block Attribute for the ID.
Typed UA to add Block Attribute for the value.
9. Selected everything with a window selection.
10. Used the Library Browser to add it to the library IN A NEW FOLDER so I could keep track of which parts had been made over.
11. Picked the reference point.
12. Named it again with the same name used in the original library folder (ANOTHER MISTAKE???).

When I then tested the part in an actual drawing, the Attributes were not a part of the BLOCK. They were there, but as separate entities.

It took me literally hours to finally try using a different NAME when I named the BLOCK that I created in step 7. I obviously don't understand something about how a BLOCK works. I thought it would need the same name when I created it in step 7 as when I saved it as a library part in step 12. But that seems to mess up things. It seems to me that I have a BLOCK with one name that is nested, along with the two Attributes IN another, higher order BLOCK with another name. Is that the case? Or did that first BLOCK somehow disappear when the second one was created?

What gives and why?

[andrew]

When I then tested the part in an actual drawing, the Attributes were not a part of the BLOCK. They were there, but as separate entities.

Without following your whole sequence of events, this statement above seems to be the main point of your confusion. This is correct and expected behaviour. Attributes are separate entities (since they are not the same for every block reference). This is not an error but by design.

In QCAD, when you select a block reference, the attributes are selected with it, so the handling is similar as if they would be one entity, but they really are separate entities existing on the same level of your drawing and that is correct. You can also delete or move or otherwise change attributes separately, the drawing is still valid. Attributes are created based on the attribute definitions of a block but from then on they can live separate lives.

On a side note, you can synchronize your attributes with the attributes definitions of the block if you choose so.

[Chips&Chips]

OK, that's good to know.

But I guess my real question in my last post was about the use of names and was that the reason why my process above failed.

I had a PART saved in the library.
I edited a copy of that PART in a drawing.
As part of that editing I had to make it a BLOCK, with a name.
I used the same name.
I tried to give that BLOCK some Attributes.
Finally I tried to save it again as a PART in my library.

It FAILED. When that part was inserted into a drawing, the Attributes were there, but not editable in the Property Editor when the instance of that part is selected.

What I really want to know and UNDERSTAND is was my use of names the real problem and WHY. I like to understand what I am doing instead of just remembering a procedure that works.

[Husky]

But I guess my real question in my last post was about the use of names and was that the reason why my process above failed.

I had a PART saved in the library.
I edited a copy of that PART in a drawing.
As part of that editing I had to make it a BLOCK, with a name.
I used the same name.
I tried to give that BLOCK some Attributes.
Finally I tried to save it again as a PART in my library.

To be on the same page - inserting a library item into an actual drawing is always a copy. Is that the way you did it?

Also, the library item is always inserted as a block which can then be edited in the drawing. No need to create a new block accept you need an additional and modified version of this block in your drawing.

Anyway - if you create a block and use an existing name a warning pops up. If you ignore it and use an existing name again the previous block version will be overwriten.

Note - the original library item will not be affected by any of this manipulation.

Note - Qcad has no idea what the content of a block or library item (what is also a block) is.
Qcad knows only two things: It is a block and it has a name. As everything in computer file management - there is no way to have multible files with the same name in a folder (library folder) or your drawing itself ...

[Chips&Chips]

Frustration on my part!

Let me try to ask what I need another way.

I have a library folder with about 45 parts(Blocks?) in it.
They do NOT have Attributes that I can use when I insert them into a drawing.
I want to add Attributes to them.
I ALSO want to change the LAYER that they are on.
And, preferably have them keep the same file names.

What is the best way for me to do this?
You can see how I am attempting to do it now in my post above?
Is that the best way or is there another, preferably shorter/easier way?

[andrew]

You can simply edit the library files one by one and add the required attributes.

Procedure:
- Find the item you want to edit in the part library
- Right-click on the item and choose Edit... (alternatively, drag the item into QCAD but not into the drawing area to edit the item)
- Menu: Block > Attributes > Define Block Attribute
- Add the block attribute(s) as required
- File > Save
- File > Close

Your item has been updated and is ready to be used with the attributes.

[Chips&Chips]

Andrew,

THANKS! Thanks a million!

That's exactly what I was looking for. And it works like a charm.

Thanks!


Wait, EDIT. I was not able to change the LAYER it was on. How do I get it to layer 0?
EDIT 2: Figured it out. Use Property Edit.

For the benefit of future confused new users here is what I am doing:

Andrew's Procedure with my additions in RED:
- Find the item you want to edit in the part library
- Right-click on the item and choose Edit... (alternatively, drag the item into QCAD but not into the drawing area to edit the item) I am not sure of exactly how I would drag into QCAD but not into the drawing area. I have not tried that.
* Edit as needed.
* After selecting everything, I used Property Editor to change everything to layer 0.
- Menu: Block > Attributes > Define Block Attribute (Shortcut = UA)
- Add the block attribute(s) as required
- File > Save (Shortcut = Ctrl-S)
- File > Close (Shortcut = Ctrl-F4)

Now, my final problem with this, I hope:
Every time I start to edit a new symbol/part the grid of that editing window changes back to the default values.
Is there any way to keep it set where I need it? I have tried both the Drawing Preferences and the Application Preferences.

[CVH]

Now, my final problem with this, I hope:
Every time I start to edit a new symbol/part the grid of that editing window changes back to the default values.
Is there any way to keep it set where I need it? I have tried both the Drawing Preferences and the Application Preferences.

The Grid is a global thing, there is no grid setting per Block.
Blocks store their last used zoom state what also may affect the displayed Grid when auto scaled.
Model Space is nothing more than a (required) Block ...

Editing a Block definition should leave it in the 'last used zoom state'.
Overwriting a Block definition may reset the 'last used zoom state' to auto zoom.
If you import a library file 'as Block' (per options) you can overwrite (per option) an existing Block.
If you (re-)insert a library item you can overwrite (per option) an existing Block.


Your confusion with attributes is that there are Attributes, Block-Attributes and Attribute definitions.
Sometimes all are simply called "attributes".
Just the same as there are Block references and Block definitions.
Sometimes all are simply called "blocks".


Functional attributes like you require are added as Attribute definitions in Block edit mode ... Directly in the Block definition.
One can not 're-create' them from Attributes or Block-Attributes (entities) using BC.
The functionality will occur once while inserting a Block reference based on a Block with Attribute definitions.

Regards,
CVH

[Chips&Chips]

CVH,

I am sure there is a lot of good wisdom in your response. And I am sure that I will read it at least five times trying to extract enough of it to figure out if the answer to my question is YES or NO. Then I am going to play with this again to see if I can find a better way to work with it.

You talk about zoomed state. But when I edit a block using andrew's procedure I get an editing window (I guess that is a "SPACE") that is full sized over the normal (Model Space?) area. And it is certainly zoomed in a lot more than when I created it, saved it as a part, or used it. And when I do adjust the zoom in that editing window to somewhere around the size that I had used, the grid is nothing like what I had set before that. What the grid settings for that editing window actually are, I do not know. Nor do I know of a way in which I could find out. Perhaps I need to take some screen shots.

"Model Space is nothing more than a (required) Block ...". I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Am I working in Model Space while editing per andrew's instructions? I would have thought not.

I am not sure I understand enough about the rest of your response to even formulate a question about it. I am going to experiment with what I have and see what works. But that is not how I prefer learning things.

Now, my final problem with this, I hope:
Every time I start to edit a new symbol/part the grid of that editing window changes back to the default values.
Is there any way to keep it set where I need it? I have tried both the Drawing Preferences and the Application Preferences.

The Grid is a global thing, there is no grid setting per Block.
Blocks store their last used zoom state what also may affect the displayed Grid when auto scaled.
Model Space is nothing more than a (required) Block ...

Editing a Block definition should leave it in the 'last used zoom state'.
Overwriting a Block definition may reset the 'last used zoom state' to auto zoom.
If you import a library file 'as Block' (per options) you can overwrite (per option) an existing Block.
If you (re-)insert a library item you can overwrite (per option) an existing Block.



Your confusion with attributes is that there are Attributes, Block-Attributes and Attribute definitions.
Sometimes all are simply called "attributes".
Just the same as there are Block references and Block definitions.
Sometimes all are simply called "blocks".


Functional attributes like you require are added as Attribute definitions in Block edit mode ... Directly in the Block definition.
One can not 're-create' them from Attributes or Block-Attributes (entities) using BC.
The functionality will occur once while inserting a Block reference based on a Block with Attribute definitions.

Regards,
CVH

[Chips&Chips]

Some screen shots. Perhaps they show where I am a bit better.

First the grid settings I have made. I have taken a lot of care to be sure both the Application and the Drawing grids are set to 0.05" in all four Viewports. Units are set to Inch and Imperial in both. And I closed QCAD and opened it again to be sure that the settings were in effect.

AppAndDrawingGridSettings240216.jpg (229.13 KiB) Viewed 1239 times

And here is what I get when editing a part/BLOCK. The battery symbol is 0.5" from end to end and there are five grid lines in that distance which means they are 0.1" apart.

StillA0p1InGrid.jpg (81.69 KiB) Viewed 1239 times

So, apparently the editing window is using some grid setting other than the Application and Drawing settings. I can not find where that is coming from.

My present work-around is to use relative coordinates to move the entities after they are created. But this apparently requires first selecting the command line and then typing in the relative coordinate for the move (@0.5,0). Discovering that this was possible and then discovering how to do it was two more challenges. But it would be much nicer to just place them on the grid locations that I actually want in the first place.

[andrew]

Please attach your library item file "_EPAParts\SchematicSymbols\Batt3-Volt-500.dxf" (or similar).

This is the only file that contains the grid settings for that item and the file that would help us determine what is happening.

[CVH]

First the grid settings I have made. I have taken a lot of care to be sure both the Application and the Drawing grids are set to 0.05" in all four Viewports. Units are set to Inch and Imperial in both. And I closed QCAD and opened it again to be sure that the settings were in effect.

First ... Drawing Preferences are those of the current active drawing in the GUI.
The similar settings in Application Preferences are the defaults for NEW drawings created with QCAD.
Also see the text in red of the App.Prefs widget, the top one in AppAndDrawingGridSettings240216.jpg

Meaning that when you open QCAD without loading a drawing you get a new file with a Grid based on the App.Prefs., but when opening an existing drawing the Grid settings are retrieved from the Drawing Preferences stored in the file.

I have taken a lot of care to be sure both the Application and the Drawing grids are set to 0.05" in all four Viewports.

Agreed, what with some leading zeroes? I would assume it doesn't matter.
This also means that these are textual fields of a combo box and not of the calculating type (RMathLineEdit).
Remind that I already remarked that Grid settings based on values other than 1e10^n have an Issue ...
... We don't see 0.5 or 0.05 listed in the drop down box, right?
https://www.qcad.org/bugtracker/index.p ... sk_id=2284
Basically a coding error related to a 10 based LOG(n) function and the inverse of that.
https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=10155

All four Viewports is probably not required.
In StillA0p1InGrid.jpg we can see that you only use Viewport 1 in the GUI layout.
I know ... Here we are talking of the GUI Layout, not a Layout Block, with 1-4 Viewports not to be confused with Viewports on a Layout Block.
But you have to agree, both 'ports' are means to present a view on the model, on screen, on paper.
See: Drawing Preferences .. Layout .. Viewports
Amused to be set on "Single" ... You can preview what this preference is meant for, it divides your drawing panel up.

The actual displayed Grid also depend on your Zoom state and if the Grid/Meta Grid is auto scaled or not.
Zoom state : The relation between the screen size and the real world size.
Or, how many units equals with 1 pixel. When zoomed in far then 1 pixel is less units apart then when zoomed out far.
Of course this relation is reflected in the Rulers and the Grid/Meta Grid.
The values in the right lower corner of your drawing panel tell you more on the current Grid/Meta Grid step size.

Remark that I speak in units ... Designing in CAD is basically unit-less.
1.23 unit being 1.23 inch or 1,23 kilometer, it really doesn't matter.

"Model Space is nothing more than a (required) Block ...". I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

When drawing in Model_Space you are actually editing the Block definition of the Block called 'Model'.
When you switch to another Block in the Block List you are then editing the other Block definition.
Each Block stores the last used zoom state were you left it in.
...
There is one exception and that is when opening a drawing.
By default QCAD displays the Block called 'Model' in auto zoomed mode.
This is by preference, see App.Prefs. .. Graphics View .. Auto Zoom .. Auto Zoom on load

- - - - - - -

So, apparently the editing window is using some grid setting other than the Application and Drawing settings.
I can not find where that is coming from.

No, probably not, see Drawing Preferences of the Batt3-Vert-500.dxf file ...
... We clearly see Grid < Meta Grid values of 0.1 and 10.

We can't really reproduce your situation solely based on the Grid/Meta Grid settings.
We also need to know if your Grid/Meta Grid is fixed or auto scaled and a real example with a Library item would be helpful.
Units should really don't matter but knowing that there is a mixed unit situation could be handy.

Regards,
CVH