[solved] Moving the ZERO

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TreestumpExhaustpipe
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[solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by TreestumpExhaustpipe » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:24 am

I must be missing something.

If I have a design with a ZERO I want to move then whatever I do after I save the design with the new zero, if I load it up again then the zero is at the previous place again.
It doesnt seem to save the new zero when I save a design.

What is it I misunderstand ?

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Husky
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by Husky » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:35 am

I don't quit understand your question. :oops:

Please elaborate what to you mean with "design with a Zero, the new zero". Coordinate system???
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by CVH » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:42 am

did you mean something like this...
https://qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php? ... 786#p26786
In short: you can't move the origin but you can move everything else in relation to the origin.

But this doesn't explain you could set a new origin or 'zero'.
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:24 am
after I save the design with the new zero
The other thing that comes to mind is the relative zero.
A small red circle with a cross in it.
Usually in auto positioning, RZ sets it, RL locks it.
I am not aware off a use for it outside Qcad and don't really know, but see no reason to save it in a dxf.

Regards,
CVH,
Last edited by CVH on Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TreestumpExhaustpipe
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by TreestumpExhaustpipe » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am

1) Cam Software uses the Cad generated ZERO for starting point where the tool should be placed.
2) You can find the ability to move the ZERO under.
Go to Menu SNAP: Then at the bottom: Set Relative Zero. and Lock Relative Zero.

I understand that no one seems aware of this or the functionality, but if you work with CNC it is crucial.

Moving the Zero and locking it then saving, does not work.
If I reopen it then the move was ignored and same as before.

Trivial to reproduce.

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Husky
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by Husky » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:23 am

TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
1) Cam Software uses the Cad generated ZERO for starting point where the tool should be placed.
Your "Zero" is the absolute zero or origin of the drawing. QCAD can't move the absolute zero point. You have to move the drawing in relation to absolute zero to suit your needs.
BTW: There are many CAM apps out there which are able to move relative zero. I assume yours can't do it, correct?
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
2) You can find the ability to move the ZERO under.
Go to Menu SNAP: Then at the bottom: Set Relative Zero. and Lock Relative Zero.
Nope - that isn't what you are looking for. That is relative zero which is used for other functionality.
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
I understand that no one seems aware of this or the functionality, but if you work with CNC it is crucial.
Well, I've good reason to believe that you don't know what we know or what we don't know ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

How to solve your issue?
Select everything which has to be moved in relation to absolute 0,
launch the move / copy tool,
chose the reference point,
use the command line for the Target point,
type 0;0
confirm with the return key,
answer the dialog (most likely: Delete Original), confirm, done.
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by CVH » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:33 am

TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
1) Cam Software uses the Cad generated ZERO for starting point where the tool should be placed.
Well, mine isn't. Pritty sure my CAM takes the drawing origin on file load.
But, as Husky mentioned, it has 9 buttons to re-zero: from left-high over mid-mid to right-low.
You are mistaken if you think this is always handy?
On arbitrary designs only mid-mid makes some sense ... sometimes.
In the few cases that I work with single squared out things, sure.

Eventually this is all circumstantial and just for the ease of use.
The more elaborated these zeroing schemes may be the more prone to human errors they will get.
I usually draw my design in the first quadrant.
When a piece is on a CNC all is solved with some simple G92.

Don't we always zero our cnc to the workpiece?
And it is rather the inversed way then in 1)
We should place our tool where the design zero is and zero the cnc at that place.
In general that would be the drawing origin besides certain offsets (G92's).

Regards,
CVH
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TreestumpExhaustpipe
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by TreestumpExhaustpipe » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:48 pm

This is a boondoggle.

It is idiotic to move the entire design relative to Qcad origin.
Clearly there needs to be functionality to move the coordinate origin and not bring the mountain to the man.
On my part I mistaken the relative zero to mean just that, but even given that wrong assumption, the solution is a boondoggle.

A good program always brings the man to the mountain and dont bring the mountain to the man.
If Qcad wants me to buy the commercial version it better not battle with simple issues like this and expect the user to move the mountain, while just walking to the mountain is way more efficient and preferable.

What you suggest will work, but is fundamentally silly compared to what is feasibly and logically expected..





TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
I understand that no one seems aware of this or the functionality, but if you work with CNC it is crucial.
Well, I've good reason to believe that you don't know what we know or what we don't know ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

How to solve your issue?
Select everything which has to be moved in relation to absolute 0,
launch the move / copy tool,
chose the reference point,
use the command line for the Target point,
type 0;0
confirm with the return key,
answer the dialog (most likely: Delete Original), confirm, done.
[/quote]

TreestumpExhaustpipe
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Re: Moving the ZERO

Post by TreestumpExhaustpipe » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:57 pm

Every CAM I used uses the cad generated coordinate center. Sure I can move centers in CAM but that introduces error if you use a lot of layers.
As I use several layers that need to align, typically 12 or so with the first the outline and machine bounds, they all need to align properly.
Moving the coordinate origin is therefore crucial, rather than to move the entire design or god forbid, moving the coordinate origin of every layer, the former which can just introduce a lot of error if anything was left unselected before the move and the latter completely unacceptable.

The LAST thing I want to do is to align every layer in the CAM. Just the wrong path to follow. Using the coordinate origin I am sure my layers are all aligned and i dont have to fiddle with individual coordinate origins for each layer.

The right way is to move the coordinate origin only as it introduces no error. There is no realistic counter argument possible I can think of.

But thanks, at least I now know where the problem lies, so this is resolved, although functionality in Qcad is needed to move the coordinate origin.
CVH wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:33 am
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:05 am
1) Cam Software uses the Cad generated ZERO for starting point where the tool should be placed.
Well, mine isn't. Pritty sure my CAM takes the drawing origin on file load.
But, as Husky mentioned, it has 9 buttons to re-zero: from left-high over mid-mid to right-low.
You are mistaken if you think this is always handy?
On arbitrary designs only mid-mid makes some sense ... sometimes.
In the few cases that I work with single squared out things, sure.

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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by CVH » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:58 pm

TreestumpExhaustpipe,

Let us shortcut this issue.

Please send us a dxf file with the 'Cad generated ZERO' declared.
For ease set it at (13.9797, 83.8383) or at least let us know what it is set to.
Common numbers will be hard to find in the dxf.
Why do I need to search for it?
Because I can not find a relative thing as a zero in the dxf standard.
Sended a PM too.
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:48 pm
This is a boondoggle.
Had to Google that : 'An unnecessary, wasteful, or fraudulent project.'
IMHO: The QCAD project isn't wasteful nor fraudulent and that we use it among many others speaks for the necessity.
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:57 pm
As I use several layers that need to align, typically 12 or so with the first the outline and machine bounds, they all need to align properly.
Moving the coordinate origin is therefore crucial, rather than to move the entire design or god forbid, moving the coordinate origin of every layer, the former which can just introduce a lot of error if anything was left unselected before the move and the latter completely unacceptable.
I think I see where you're getting at.
Your workflow is coming a little clearer but still.

For one, I don't have machine bounds in my drawings (550mm x 720mm).
After homing my CNC driver will gaurd those bounds as soft limits.
That is the purpose of homing. To syncronize the hard with the soft.

What I have is a stock size and a target design.
First, I already decide how I am going to zero my CNC on the stock at hand.
As said in general left-low except .... round or odd pieces.
Next the design is placed or drafted on a multitude of layers.
All drafted and/or moved in regards to the stock layer.
A seperate derivative production file is ran to a CAM process.
I really don't bother about the origin at that point.

At what place I put my stock on the CNC is rather arbitrary to the drawing.
The alignment with the CNC might be crucial for a customer part but on plane stock it can even be trivial.
The next step is to zero my CNC to the stock.
Done or very precise or somewhere about there is good enough.
Beside I need the ability to avoid clamping if any.

At this point my CNC is zeroed on the workpiece and my CAM output is in relation with what I called zero.
This is all fine except when you are using the machine boundaries as datum reference.
Then the stock is put against the datums.
(Almost impossible below the sub mm accuracy, and that is just what I might be needing, up to 0.02mm or about)
In common the machine is zeroed after homing, it is the next logically step.
One can zero on the machine workspace and with the same ease anywhere you need it.

What I am missing is that you have to align several layers ... in CAM
> Saying that they are not aligned !? Align them individually.
But then again not by layers
or god forbid, moving the coordinate origin of every layer
Instead by entire drawing
Moving the coordinate origin is therefore crucial
> Saying that the complete drawing is not aligned !? Draw it aligned or move it.
> And yes, afterward it looks like bringing the mountain to the man.
> I Did not put the mountain there.
But then you continue with the fact that movin layers or items is a fiddle with individual coordinate origins.
To end with:
The LAST thing I want to do is to align every layer in the CAM.
From my point of view all layers share the same single coordinate origin.
That is zero in X and zero in Y. And also a position where we should relate the CNC zero to.
A CAM should not mess with that.

I would be interested to hear about your workflow and see a troublesome drawing.

Regards,
CVH.
Last edited by CVH on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TreestumpExhaustpipe
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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by TreestumpExhaustpipe » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am

Thanks CVH, I will reply to your post in detail later but just responds to a single point.

I need to set the record straight.

I never said that QCAD is a boondoggle. That would be seriously rude and false if I said that.

QCAD is the best 2D Cad program I came across for linux and helps me loads after using expensive CAD programs that was just a nightmare to use, Qcad is the only one I at least get good results with and the only one I will buy as of date as I gave up on years of struggles with moneypits like BobCad and the likes.

The Boondoggle I refer to is the requirement by Qcad to bring my entire design to align with a new origin rather than to just have a button that would ask me where I want my new origin by coordinates and be done with it.
That functionality is lacking in QCAD and that is why I called the current clumsy method to select your entire design and align it with a new Origin.
It is extremely cumbersome to do as the design grabs not where your cursor is but some arbitrary place that you cannot move into view to the new place of origin. It is really exhausting and counterproductive to do.
Then to do the other method to move to a new coordinate by copy/move and entering a coordinate seemingly has a bug. IOt moves the origin to the opposite side (negative off the coordinates I enter. So I had to work out by trial and error to find the correct coordinate values to let the drawing align with my required point where I want the origin.

A simple function in the menu to move your origin to a specified coordinate will be sooooo nice.

Thanks

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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by CVH » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:51 am

TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am
It is extremely cumbersome to do as the design grabs not where your cursor is but some arbitrary place that you cannot move into view to the new place of origin. It is really exhausting and counterproductive to do.
Correct, picking to drag is not done:
- By the picked position (usually somewhere in space)
- By the nearest entitiy // shortest distance to the picked position
But is done by the nearest reference of the nearest entity.
Simply because a screen are pixels and a drawing are vectors.
What we see on the screen is only a good representation of those vectors.
What value has a picking point truncated by pixels.
And the same goes for the nearest point on the nearest entity.

Again I am lost.
You are speaking of exact origins here or origins there but then you drag by pixels....
A) Draw in relation with the origin
B) Cut, Paste, Copy, Move have all methods that let you decide where the source and where the target point is.
Nothing to do with can or can not move into view.
Panning and zooming is always allowed.
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Husky
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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by Husky » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:47 am

TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am
I need to set the record straight.
Thanks for setting the record straight! :wink:
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am
The Boondoggle I refer to is the requirement by Qcad to bring my entire design to align with a new origin rather than to just have a button that would ask me where I want my new origin by coordinates and be done with it.
Basically I agree with this point. Unfortunately we don't have it in the current QCAD version but it exist a feature request regarding to this functionality. Maybe we just have to show a bit patience ...

https://www.qcad.org/bugtracker/index.p ... ask_id=694

TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am
Then to do the other method to move to a new coordinate by copy/move and entering a coordinate seemingly has a bug. IOt moves the origin to the opposite side (negative off the coordinates I enter. So I had to work out by trial and error to find the correct coordinate values to let the drawing align with my required point where I want the origin.
I can't reproduce this what you consider as a "bug"! We are talking about a precise positioning what means we have and can use all snap point which are plenty offered by QCAD. It would not help your CNC to have an origin somewhere else than the Home position. It has to be exact!
TreestumpExhaustpipe wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:18 am
A simple function in the menu to move your origin to a specified coordinate will be sooooo nice.
Yes it would be nice for a special group of user. Not for me but that doesn't counts! Simple? For the user - yes - to implement that regarding to all dxf/dwg standards ......... I don't know! We user often underestimate a task like that ... :wink:

Howsoever: Regarding to all your obstacles like aligning all layer precisely, moving to an exact point, dealing with a presumably bug etc. I made a little test. As I said - I don't need that functionality what means I don't have any routine in this task.
I did it in less than a minute - what do you think how long I need with a bit more practice ...

... and my workaround would work for extensive drawings too.

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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by CVH » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:31 am

Agreed with Husky,
Yet another method.
We really don't see any problem in moving thing.
In essences we do this all the time.

Regards,
CVH.
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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by ljbuller » Fri May 15, 2020 5:22 pm

I have to jump in here in support of TreeStumpExhaustPipe.

I note the feature request of the UCS. My understanding is that a ucs is always temporary At least in AutoCAD or Draftsight, and that the entities will always be saved using the world coordinate system. I used to use EasyCAD by Mike Riddle, the original AutoCAD author. EasyCAD had a neat tool called "change origin" It did not have a UCS, but in the background moved all entities from a selected point to the origin.
Yes, in QCAD, you can
1.turn on all layers
2. select all entities
3. select the move command
4. select the point to move from
5. select the point to move to (need to type 0,0 here)
6. confirm whether to keep or delete existing entities
7. confirm with ok

or
1. Select the change origin command
2. click or type the new origin location

Personally, I like 2 steps

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Husky
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Re: [solved] Moving the ZERO

Post by Husky » Fri May 15, 2020 10:18 pm

ljbuller wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 5:22 pm
I have to jump in here in support of TreeStumpExhaustPipe.
May I ask you what for you would use a movable UCS?


Let see what we have ...

Fact is:
- it isn't currently part of QCAD Pro, I'm absolutely sure there is a reason for that,
- a feature request exist,
- we have a workaround for a permanent (saved) solution, done in less than a minute - obviously no one really likes it.
- we have an add-on solution from riverbuoy - obviously no one likes it too. What is here the problem?
viewtopic.php?f=107&t=5067&p=18700&hili ... ero#p18700

... and this cloud is hanging above my head: Why I have the feeling that the question to get a variable UCS is just because no one really knows how to work with the QCAD Relative Zero functionality? The CAM / Zero argument isn't one what I heard often because most CAM's can compensate the "home position" situation ...
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